329.0 Constitution (Amendment) Bill MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Now we will take up Private Members Business. First, Bills for introduction. 15.32 hrs. CONSTITUTION BILL. (AMENDMENT) (Insertion of new article 16A etc.) । English] SHRI G-. M. BANATWALLA (Ponnani) : Sir, I beg to move that । ६: ४० be granted to introduce a Bill further -० amend the Constitution of India. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The question ।० : “That leave be छुए घात to intro- ducs a Bill further to amend the Constitution of India.”’ The motion was adopted. SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA : Sir, I introduce the Biil. । (CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL=contd. (Amendment of Eighth Schedule) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Before we take up further discussion on the Constitution (Amendment) Bill by Shii Satyagopal Misra, I would like to remind the House that out of two hours that is allotted, one hour and fifty-seven minutes are over. Shall we extend the time by one hour. SHRIC. MADHAV REDDY: But then the other business will suffer. CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Constitution 340 (Amendment) Bill SHRI NARAYAN CHOUBEY: Other things can be taken afterwards. Why not 7 It is the practice. (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : If you do not watt to discuss, I will call the Minister to reply. If you wani to discuss, I will cxtend the time. I leave it to the House to decide. I want to seck the opinion of the House. SHSI SURESH KURUP: There are certain prac:iccs. Members who have given their names to participate in the Debate, can pariicipate, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is why I am secking the opinion. One member szcys he is intcrested in extension. But the other says ‘no’. SHRI NARAYAN CHOUBEY : You apply your mind, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : I can do that. But I want to seek your opinion, I told you. SHRI । AYYAPU REDDY: Sir, you. know that Private Members Busincss is too Iong. Most of those members who have tabled thcir Bills, should be given a chance to speak somcthing. CUnterruptions) ys MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please sitdewn. The prob!em is, nobody is restiicting his time. । restrict them to ten oc five minutes, but everybody takes half an hour and so on. They go on talking. AN HON. MEMBER : You regulate the House. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: । um ready to doit. I want to help the 331 Constitution (Amendment) Bill Members. But they should cooperate with me also. SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA: How many members arc there to speak ? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: There are four, ' SHRI G. M. BANATWALLA : Allow these four to speak, but do not permit the fifth one. Why should one be so rigid ? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Okay. I request you to be briefs Now we will go according to the time schedule. MR DEPUTY SPEAKER : There are fouc Members. Thatis all. Mr. Vyas will now speak, but only five minutes are allowed. SHRI GIRDHARI LAL VYAS Whithin five minutes, how can I do jus- tice to the subject 7 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Whit- ever is spoken thereafter will not go on record. The first beil I give will bea warning. After the secord bell, nothing will be recorded. [Translation] SHRI GIRDHARIL LAL VYAS (Bhi'wara): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have two suggestions to make with regard to the Constitution Amendment Bill moved by Shri Mishra. First, he has meationcd ab ut ‘Right to Employ- ment’ in Section 18-A. It reads— [English] “Every citizen of India within the age limit of eighteen years to sixty-five years shal! have the right to employment......”” MARCH 29, 1985 Constitution 332 (Amendment) Bill [Translation] This age limit of 65 years, । think, - not justified. [English] SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA : Sir, he ‘s speaking on a different Bill. PROF. MADHU DANDAVATE When । was speaking on the Calling Attention motion, the same thing happened. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER Now Mr. K.-D. Sultanpuri. [Translation| SHRI K. D. SULTANPURI (Simla) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say something about the Nepali Lunguage Bill, It was mentioned here that 10 l.kh Nepali speaking people were living in India ard that they were ciii- zens of India and, ag such, their Nepali language should be included in the Constitution. So far as Nepalis are concerned, they are very brave and nice people. At different places, Nepalis speak diffe- rent languages, some speak Bhutani, some Sikkimi and some Bengali. Nepalis have also settled in Arurachal, Himachal and Kashmir. The objective behind moving this Bill is to get votes of Nepalis living in Darjeeling ard Bengal. It 1s only for this purpose that they want Nepali to be on the Statute Book. We respect all the languages. All the . languages of the South are spoken in India. Government are taking steps to promote those languages. So far as the National Language is concerned, it is only Hindi, although we have included Tamil, Telugu, Malyalam, etc. in the Corstituਂ 333° Constitution (Amendment) Bill tion. It is not proper to say thet Government are not doing justice to the provisions of tho Constitution. I would like to submit it is not correct that । Jakh Nepalis live in India. Nepali language, as they speak, is written in Devanagri. Pahari janਂ guage is spoken in our Himachal Pradesh. The population of Pahari speaking people is 42 lakhs. They also want their language to be brought on the Statute Book. They have an Academy of their own, of which Mr. Parashar is the Vice-President. I thirk, it wou'd not be a healthy practice to go on increasing the number of langu- ages, whereby every person cou'd say that his language shou'd be included in the constitution. It isa stumtto win votes. Itis only a question cf their exploitation. My submission is that all the Jangu- ages are beautiful languages, whether it is Bengali or any other language. In India various languages are spoken and dialects vary from village to village and from area to area. How will it be justified fo put all of them on _ the Statute Book । We have to develop a National Language and being the citizens of one nation, we should learn all the languages, We want to learn Bengali, Malayalam and Telugu as_ well. They are all dear to us. They should be promoted in their respective areas, from -where you are to solicit votes. Every Nepali speaking person should know it. You should raise this issue in the State Assembly, so that this language is taught in the school there. National Languages are being given their proper status. It has been the endeavour of the Government to enrich them further, Iam not prepared to accept the allegation that the Govern- ment are not paying proper attention to them. CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Constitution 33 (Amendment) Bill I would request the hon. Minister, who has introduced this Bill to amend the constitution, to withdraw it. It is in the interest of the people that they should respect all our national languages. With these words, I conclude and thank you for giving mean apportunity to speak. [English] SHRI NARAYAN CHOUBEY (Midnapore) : I support the conclusion of Nepali Language in the Eighth Schedule. Nepali Language in an Indian language. Since is it spoken in Nepal, so it is not an Indian Language, I think, comrade Ashok Da would not agree with this. Bengali is very much spoken in Bangladesh and also in West B.ngal; that does not mean that Bengali Lenguage is not an Indian Language. So, this comparison is wrong. This was what sometimes Mr. Morarji Desai stated. I know you also do not agree with this. We think it is an Indian language and it should find a place in the Eighth Schedule. What is being feared and apprehanded is that no sooner will Nepali be included this list than the Pandora's Box will be opened and other people also will start clamouring that their languages shou'd also get a place in the Eighth Schcdule. I think that this great national movement of India should never be afraid of this. It so happens; it is bound to happen. These who are dormant today, will rise tomorrow, those Janguages are today neglected, wiil be having good languages tomorrow. India is a multilingual State. Many languages shall be coming, say the language of the Santhalis, who are backward today, say, other languages which are backward today, shall grow and definitely they shall fight for their inclusion; and that would not violate the status oi India as a Republic, It is only the chauvinistic attitude of the Hind । speaking people which is standing as a bar 335 Constitution (Amendment) Bill against inclusion of such languages in the Eighth Schedule. We would be very cautious about it. Already, you have accepted Sindhi in the Eighth schedule. At Icast, there are more numbcr of Nepalis in Indta who speak Nepali than the people who speak Sindhi. I do not know; I think Prof. Ranga can tell me whether money playcd a part or not, because Sindhis are rich people; So, their language could be ircluded. Bu! poor Nepalis, agricultural Jabourers, are fight- ing for your independence, are fighting on the borders of your State; why should you not include their langnage in the Eighth accept Sindhi, why can’t we accept Nepali? Why should we not agrec ? Shri Priya Ranjan Das Munsi spoke of one language and he mentioned that in the Soviet Union all people are learning Russian. This is not truc. In the Soviet Union, evcry Russian is compelled to learn one more Russian language, and all non-Russians, are requcsted to learn the Russian language. Understand the difference. Atl Russian people must learn one Russian language and of each non-Russian, it is expected that he will learn the Russian Language. AN HON. MEMBER: It is not compulsory. SHRI NARAYAN CHOUBEY : It is not cumpulsory. So, what has hap- pened is that the Russian Language is learnt by every body. So, everybody knows Russian. Here, had we followed that principle, today Hindi would have been accepted by the entire country. Because the Hindi chauvinistwalas have tried to force Hindi on the South Indians and on the Easnern Part of India, so there was a difference. If you really love Hindi, follow the principle of the Soviet Union and you wil] see that Hindi will gradually spread, MARCH 29, 1985 Schedule । If you can Constitution 336 (Amendment) Bill AN HON. MEMBER: A common script should be there. SHRI NARAYAN CHOUBEY : Iam not speaking about common script now. Even in the 1980 Congress Election Manifest: they wanted thet Nepali should be included. I think at that time they had to defeai the Janta: Government, because Janata Party was in power in 1977-79, and they included this thinking that if thcy includcs it they could get votes. And Shrimeti Indira Gandhi whenever she want to Darjeeling— I understand Shri Morarji Bhai, he was a frank and forthright man, whatever he understood, he used to speak. very frankly—she mentioncd it. But it is the so-called great men with hypocritic feelings who whenever they were in Darjeeling favoured Nepali to be included in the Eighth Schedule. In the West Bengal Assembly these Congress people had passcd a unanimous re- solution stating that Nepali should be inciuded in the Eighth schedule. But when they ccme here they say that it cannot be donc. So, this hypecrisy of the ruling party I fail to understand. But I request them, the Sun will not fall from heavens, there will be no earth tremors if Nepali is accepted. We request the Law Minister that Nepali should be immediately accepted . - PROF. N. G. RANGA : No, no. SHRI NARAYAN CHOUBEY : You may say ‘No’. You are giving birth to fissiparous tendencies. It is Nepali today, tomorrow there will be some other people, they may feel that they are debarred from getting their rights. But fissiparous tendencies, these things deve~ lop from these areas, tilly areas, back- ward areas, when a people feel that their language, their rights are boing curtailed, when they think that ‘we ate not part of India, our rights are being curtailed’. 1, therefore, request the hon. Law 337 Constitution (Amendment) Bill Minister to kindly accept Nepali for inclusion in the Eighth Schedule. Heavens will not fall if it is inciuded. Only the chauvinistic Hindi-speaking, people do not wantit. Kindly do not prevent it. It will do more harm than goad. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think everybody is cooperating well, and finishing in less than five minutes, even three or four minutes. I think this should be maintained for nuture also. Shri Tombi Singh. SHRI N. TOMBI SINGH (Inner Manipur): Mr. Deputy-Spcaker, this Bill has got a very special importance, because the amendment of the Eighth Schedule has been demand: d from muny language groups. So, when we cansider Nepali there are other languages. Naturally, therefore, we look for a leadership a national thinking, through which we shall see the nation compre- hensively. I recall when we, the States and Urion Territories in the North-East, were demanding separate administration and scparate States, many in the country were like the proverbial six as blind men secking an elephant, they only saw their nearest parts and described the elephant accordingly. But through the great comprehensive eyes of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and his able suc- cessors Shastriji and leter Shrimati Indiraji, the North-East was reorganised. That brought together the North-East region, giving birth to States like Manipur, Nagaland, Meghalaya and Tripura. PROF. N. G. RANGA : Mizoram and Arunachal Pradesh. SHRI N. TOMBI SINGH: Mizoram and Arnnachal Pradesh were made Union Territories. CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Canstitution 338 (Amendment) Bill But if you judge by the size, you will see that these are smal} States and Union Territories, most of them much smaller than districts in Uttar Pradesh. The fact is that, there were other considera- tions. There are language groups other than Nepali. Manipuri, I think, by any consideration. On top. of other languages in the .consideration because it has been the language of the court and administration, the languege of the masses and also has a very developed literature in the State of Manipur. Since early days this has bcen the language of ar independent Stute, an independent Kingdom, before the merger, on integration with the great Indian Union. This demand for inclusion of Mnnipuri in the 8th schedule has been hanging fire for so many decades. When we demanded statehood, we also demanded that Manipuri lar-guage should be included inthe Eighth Schedule. Then our leaders said that all the things should not be asked ata time although there were justifications for that. They assured that they would do it at the right time. Where isthe right time । The amendment of the Eighth Schedule should be opened. Arguments are mado that the Eighth Schedule is too big. If the Eighth Schedule can have । languages, it can very well have 16 or 17 languages also. That should be our consideration. Now, the qucstion is: what should be the criteria ?I am not opposed to Nepali. Similarly, । am not opposed to other languages. Whatever languages have been recog- niscd by the Sahitya Akademy should be tuken for the purposes of the Eighth Schedule, as they have been recognised on academic merit. Either increase the number of languages in the Eighth Schedule as suggested by many hon. Members, if all these languages are to be retained, then we have to include Manipuri, and other deserving languages in the Eighth Schedule or remove all the other languages except Hindi and English. Let us discuss it in a comprehensive manner. I would like to appeal to the national leadership, the able succcssors of Panditji, Shastriji and Indiraji, and 330 Constitution (Amendment) Bill now at the helm of affairs, Shri Rajivji to see the national intcrest comprehensi- vely ard avoid seeing things like the proverbial six blind men _ describing, different parts of the elephant. Ours is a big country. Let us sce the Eighth Schedule comprehensively and amend it to include Manipuri, and other languages which deserve a place in that. Number should not be the criteria, but the criteria should be something else. Dr. Suniti Kumar Chatterjee, a great linguist, who was not a Manipuri, said that in spite of the smallness of the population speaking Manipuri, it is one of the richest languages of the country. Population-wise we are not small. We have about two million Manipuris in the country. This is the official language ofa State and medium of instruction and examination upto the sccondary. stage. Itis a subject in the honours studies. Ore can study M. A., M. Phil in that. This is the language of the courts in Manipur. This language has a history beginning with the ancient times followed by medieval, modern and contemporary. We have a rich store- house of literature covering departments like translations, original writings. It covers the entire Hindu Vedic literature in translation beginning with the Vedas, the Upnishads, the Puranas, the Gita, the Ramayana, the Mahabharta. We have the translation of books by great writers in Bengali, Hindi, English and other Indian languages. Its original pro- ducts cover novels, dramas, essays, poems and stories. So this language deserves on 18 own right, not as a special consid:ra- tion, inclusion in the Eighth Schedule. Therefore, this should be considered on top of other aspirant languages. It is imperative that our national leadership should not prolong this because if we go on prolonging it for long, we shall only be inviting agitations and _ revolution which our late Prime Minister felt was no more necessary. If you do not like agitations, we should heve consideration at the literary, academic and Sentlemanly level of discussion. We expect that some positive action will be taken in this direction. MARCH 29, 1985 Constitution 340 (Amendment) Bill THE MINISTER OF LAW AND JUSTICE (SHRI A.K. SEN): Mr. Deputy Spcaker, Sir, there has becn lot of misunderstanding about the utility and function of Artic!s 344 to which the Eighth Schedule is attached. Articific 344.0 has been inserted only for a specific purpose, namely, to mame certain languages only for the purpose of throwing colour, for the enrichment of Hindi, and for no other purpose. May Tread Article 344 for the benefit of the House once more: 344. (1) The President shall, at the expiration of five years from the commencement of _ this Constitution and thereafter at the expiration of ten years from such commencement...... ” For the purpose of ten years, we go back to January, 1960, and I remember that this Commission was set up when I was in charge of Law Ministry in 1960— “by order constitute a Commission which shall consist of a Chairman and such other members representing the different languages specified in the Eighth Schedule...... = A commission is to be set up by the President after len years from the commencement of the Constitution representing the eight linguiste groups mentioned in Schedule Eight, and for what purpose । That is mentioned in sub-A rticle (2): “(2) It shall be the duty of the Commission to make recommendations to the President...... ११ This is the duty, for making recommen- dations to the President. And for whai purpose 7 . (a) the progressive use of the Hindi language for the official purposes of the Union.” 541 Constitution (Amendmert) Bill Not for the progressive use of any other language. This Commission will recommend measures to the President for the progressive use of Hindi in different parts of India. It further says * (७) restrictions on the use of the English language for all or any of the official purposes of the Union.” Not of the States— “(c) the language to be used for all or any of the purposts mentioned in article 348; (d) the form of numerals to be used for any one or more specified - purposes of the Union; (८) any other matter referred to the Commission...... ११ And in making the recommendation, what they have to take into account is sp ecified in sub-Article (3)—- “(3) In making their recommen- dations under clause (2), the Com- mission shall have due regard to the industrial, cultural and __ scientific advancement of India, and the just claims and the interests of persons belonging to the non-Hindi spcaking ares in regard to the public services.” So, here it comes. that their recommen- dations have to be also in keeping with the interest of the non-Hindi speaking areas and that includes Nepali-speaking areas like Darjseling, Sikkim and so on. And sub-Articie (4) says— *“(4) Thera shall be constituted a Committee consisting of thirty members, of whom twenty shall be members cf the House of the People and ten shall be members of the Council of States to be elected respectively by the members of the House of the People and the members CHA ITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) क Constitution 34 2 (Amendment) Bill of the Council of States in accordance with the system of proportional representation...... ” You will find that this is only for that Purpose. For the purpose of use of particular languiges which are confined to particular geographical areas, provi« sion has been made very carcfully in Articles 345 and 347 of the Constitution. 16.0 hrs. This is what is lost sleht of when everybody thinks that every language must Come in the Eighth Schedule. Now let us see article 345, “Subject to the provisions of articles 346 and 347, the Legislature of a State may by law......” That brings in Nepali, a Janguage spoken in the northern part of Bengal, which is called Darjeeling district. Lepcha isa language spoken by a large group inhabiting thesc areas. Then we have the Nepali group, the Sikkim group and the Bhutia group. All these four languages arc spoken in that district. In Sikkim, we have Sikkimese and Nepaii. Now the Nepalese and Sikkimese s:y : let us come to the Eighth Schedule. Ariicle 345.0 makes them the official language for that particular area. It says : eaten the Legislature of a State may by law adopt any one or more of the languages in use in the State.’’ Not in the Eighth Schedule. Therefore, the use of any language in a particular State, having regard to the particular linguistic groups inhabitng, that State, is not governed by the Eighth Schedule at all; itis governed by article 345, and the State has to enact a law, prescribing the use of the particular langugge in that State. May । say here that Shri Narayan Choubey had a dig at the ruling party; : 3 Constitution (Amendment) Bill Ido not mind that dig at all, because we are uesd to digs ard counter digs. But may द remind him that in West Bengal the Government is being run by a Front called the Left Front, the chief constituent of which is the CPM. My hon. friend’s party 15 als> a cvnstituent of that Front. That Government has pissed a law, prescrib'ng the use of the Nepalese language in three districts, namely, the districts of Durjeeling, Kalimpong and Kurseon. In thes: areas, Jet me say again, in these sub-divisions, Bengali 15 spoken by a fairly large number, Sikkimese is spoken ia Darjeeling Sub-Divisioa by a fairly large numb:r, Bautia is spoken by a faisly large number, Nepali is spoken bya fairly large mumber and Lepcha a spoken by Lepchis, who are workers in the ten gardens and other areas. But that Gavecnment has not prescribed the usz of Nepali for the entirc State. It is a very significant irct. I am = not having a dig at them. They did not do it because to say that Nepali wou!d be uscd in the areas where Santhal is spoken would be a moastrosity, bscause that is an area where there is hard’y any N«palese-speaking Nepali. That is why they have restric:ed the use of Nepali as an official language in these three sub-divisions. In Sikkim the majority of the population is Nepsli-speaking. but there is a very substantial minority of Sikkimese-spcaking people. As you know, the ruling family is Sikkimese. They have a sizable population of Sikkimese-spcaking people. Besides that, there are Hindi-speaking ard Bergali-speaking people als.. Therefore, in Sikkim, ur.der article 345, they have prescribed Sikkimese as the official language, as you have Tamil as the official language in Tamil Nadu, Kannada as the official language in Karnataka, Telugu as - the = official language in Andhra Pradesh or Telugu Desom, Marathi as the official language in Maharashtra and Gujarati as the official larguage in Gujarat. MR DEPUTY SPEAKER : Only the MARCH 29, 1985 Constitution 344 (Amendment) Bill name of the party is Telugu Desom. SHRI A.C. SEN: Itis the same; Andhra wiil remain “Andhra. Andhra will remain Andhra, the old land of Satavahanas. They were great in Indian history. There was a tims when Sata- vahanas had over-run the entire country. And about Chalukias there is a wonder- ful painting, which you still find in Elloza and Ajanta and other p'‘aces. Anyway, India is proud of all, including Nepal. We are proud of Nepali. They are part of our popu- lation. Bat let us not get mixed up as we got mixed up in Punjab politics with all typcs of sentimental questicns You will find Gurumukhi is not included in the Scheduled VIII and stiil it is the official language of Puijab. Thercfote, misunderstanding has ariscn b>cause onc does not notice the purpose of the Schedule VIII and one does not notice Article 345 and Article 347, which prescribe the procedure for making a particular small linguistic group enjoy a particular language in thcic own area, and, if necessary in the entire State. Arti- cle 345 gives that power to the State. Now, the West Bengal Government has not uscd that power. I em sure the official language in Manipur is Manipuri. That is according to Article 345. But their non-inclusion in Schedule VIII has not prevented them from becoming the official language. Now, Article 347 is very important. It says : “Ona demand being made in that behalf, the President may, if he is satisfied that a substantial propor- tion of the population of a State desires the use of any language spoken by them to be recogniscd by that State, direct that such language shall also be officially recognised throughout that State.”’ SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA: Nothing happens because of that Article. A very big memorandum with lakhs and lakhs of signatures was presented to the then President of India with respect to 3 - Constitution (Amendment) Bill the status of Urdu in U.P. No reply till now. SHRI ASHOK SEN : Iam telling you because you have not followed the ingredients of Article 347. Ingredient is ‘substantial propartion of the popu- lation’ Now, population in U.P. was about seven crores in UP. The sub- stantial proportion should have been at least fifty per cent. That means at least the number should have been three and a half crores to make it substantial proportion. Lakhs should not mean three and a half crores. The hoa. Member is forgetting arithmetic. The population of UP at present is eleven crores. Therefore, cleven crores makes it worse for the hon. Member. At least five ard a half crorcs must make the representation. So, the language of Article 347 is what I have stated just now, but Article 345 removes even that limitation. According to Article 345, the State J.cgislature may pass a law even though there is no ‘substantial’ demind. Therefore, Article 347 is again lost sight of. I know about this because I have a substantial number of Urdu-speaking Muslims in Calcutta and they have always told me what the hon. Member tells me. Now, I cannot convince them, but I can ccnvince the hon. Member that ‘substantial numbei’ means sub- Stantial number and not only a small number. SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA । In that case guarantee has no meaning because ‘substantial’ you put at three and a half crorcs, when Urdu-speaking population in UP was about two crores and more than forty lakhs of people had given signatures to the then Presi- dent of India. SHRI A.K. SEN: Article 347 is not a guarantee. It is a power, SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : It is paper guarantce in that case. CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Constitutlon 3 46 (Amendment) Bill SHRI A.K. SEN : The hon. Member is forgetting that guarantee of language is in Article 29, where every sect and every Segment of the population has the frecdom to pursue their own language and to develop their own language. The hon. Member may kindly read Article 29. Therefore, Article 347 isa power, not a guarantee. Guarantee is a limi- tation on the power. This is the difficulty when we get mixcd up with emotions in interpretation of the Con- stitution. Therefore, Article 29 reads: “Any scction of the citizens residing in the territory of 11018 or any part thereof hiving a distinct language, Script or culture of its own shall hive the right to conserve the same.’’ That is the guarantee. Thercforc, I have appeared for many minority linguistic groups, as for instance, the Arya Samaj group in S0 19. When the Hindi language was sought ta be abolished from certain schoo's as medium of instruction, the Supreme _Court struck it down on the g-ound that the Arya Saniaj community which speaks Hindi must haye the guarantee to conserve their culture and script. And there is another Jangu:ge like that. If you look at Article’ 26, it suys : “Subject to public order, morality and heaith, every religious denomination or any section thereof shall have the right~— (a) to establish and maintain institutions for relig.ous and charitable purposes; (७) to manage its own affairs in matters of religion;’’ and so on. Many religious institutions in U.P. and other places carry 01. instructions through Urdu. That cannot be prevented. Secondly, Article 14 is another guarantee which says...... 347 Constitution (Amendment) Bill SHRI । TOMBI SINGH : Sir, I am on a point of order, I will submit that we are not makind submissions before a court of law. We are making submissions before a forum which cin make law. MR. DEPUTYY SPEAKER: Are you making submission or a point of order 7 SHRI N. TOMBI SINGH : The hon. Law Minister is defending according to the Constitution, while also fiil secks दाप 014 21: of the constitution. (L..terruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: । ask the Member : What is your pvint of order ? SHRI N. TOMBI SINGH : This is my point of order. SHRI A. K. SEN Point of order means a pdint wh'ch immediately puts a ban on the discussion. That is the point of order. We are dealing with the Constitution itself, the Bighth Schcdule. Therefore I am saying, the Eighth Schedule does not give any guirantee. Then every language spoken in the country must come to the Eighth Schedule. It says only that these languages shall have representatives on the Commission which will be constituted aftcr ten years from the Commencement of the Constitution—for what purposes? to adv'se the President as to how Hindi shou'd be developed and not how Manipuri and Nepali and others shou'd be developed. PROF. । G. RANGA: Not about their awn languages. SHRI A.K. SEN: Their own languages arc to be developed in their own States and the States have the power under Article 345 and Article 347 is the President’s power. Supposing MARCH 29, 1985 Constitution 348 (Amendment) Bill an overwhelming number of people as in Sikkim --take; for instance, Sikkim— a majority of psople there are Nepalese- speaking, about । per cent of the population. Supposing they say, ‘Let it be the official language’ and the State dared to introduc: Sikkimese as the official languago, then the President may be approached stating that there the substantantial number is seeking that language to be made the language of the State, but the State is not doing it. Then the President can impose it. Therefore, these are the conditions and the fallacy lies in this complex when people feel that anything not in tho Eighth Schedule has been given an inferior status. Not at all. There are so many languages, as, for instance, Manipur itself has a rich language of its own-—-very rich—-and fortunately it is written in Bengali script and I read it. (Interruptions) SHRI N. TOMBI SING!IT; You should not laugh at that. SHRI A.K. SEN: 1 am_ not langhing, I am appreciating. I am sorry, when the scntiment comes in, I have to -० that. Tamvery happy about it. Fortunately, I say it because I read it in that script. When it comes to Urdu, I cannot read it; Ihave my _ limitation though Urdu is such a rich language. Similarly, in respect of Maithili language, I read it because Maithili is in Bengali script. Maithili and Bengali have the same script and_ they have very closc systems. JI read Assamese because Assamese is in Bengali script. PROF. - RANGA: And it has an advantage for everybody. SHRI A. K.SEN: I will tell yon why. Oriya and Bengali are much closer than Assamese and Bengali and yet । cannot re:d Oriya beearuse Oriya script is different. I am _ saying that when we come to the rock pottom of the Constitution we must not get 349 Constltution (Amendment) Bill mixed up with other emotional issues. As I said, I gave a very good example that Gurumukhi was not in the Eighth Schedule and yet Gurumukhi । the official language as Punjab says, and you seo ia Delhi, the streets in Dotht bear the names in Gurumukhi everywhere. I was reading the other day ‘Rajaji Marg’ which is written in Gurumukhi. That is why I am saying, Sir, that - is not proper to iaclude everything in the Eighth schcdule; then we will be burdcned with a host of linguistic groups. Whose recommendations to include in the VIII Schedule, the Constitution framers did not think it necessary for the purpose of enriching Hindi or for the purpos;> of accelerating the progress of the use of Hindi. That is all. If that is so and if the purpose is appreciated, I think, these demands will be given a quictus. Wh.t will be more important is to see that due recognition is given for every linguistic group in every State. It they form the majority for making that language as the official language of the State, like Sikkimese in Sikkim, instead of tryiny to get every languags into the VIII Schedule, it would be bettcr. It they start including every language in the VIII Schedule, the number will go to about 100. You will have to get Maithili. You will have get Munda, Konkan = and_ various other languages. Konkar is a distinct language according to the then Chief Justice who presided over the Delimination Cases and I lost the case. I argued that Konkan was only a_ dialect of some other. But he held very solidly that Konkan is a distinct language. So, therefore, let us not get bogged with this idea that anything not containcd in the VIII Schedule is of no utility. They are of very great utility. You go to Darjeeling; go to Kurseo; go to Kalimpong. A large number of people speak Nepali there. Nepali is spoken even in schools. Even Bengalis and Hindi speaking pecple speak Nepali. Of course, Nepali is so close to our language; it is more close to Bengali than Hindi and it is written in the Devanagiri script. I don’t know whether Nepali ever had its own script, CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Constitution 350 (Amendment) Bill But Nepali, as we know, is all written in Devanagiri script and so closely discended from Sanskrit and Pali. That is why, it is so near to us, more than Hi di. When [listen to the Nepali programme of the All India Radio, I follaw every word of it. It is because we follow Nep2li much more easily than anybody clse. Th:reforc, at the moment, if we shed ourselves of this idea that anything not contain.d in the छाप Schedule is attached with stigma, I think, this demand will have a quietus of its own. With these words, I request the hon. Member to withdraw the Bill. Otherwise, it will be our duty to oppose it. Let us not brig politics into it. Mr. Narayan Choubey is thinking that as though the inclusion of Nepali in the VIII Schedule wi'l bring them some votes of Nepalis. SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA (Tamluk) : Mr. Deputy-Specaker, Sir, I am gratcful to the hon. Members who have taken part in this discussion and contributed a lot to the debate. Iam particularly grateful to the hon. Members from the Opposition Benches including my AIADMK friend Who have unconditionally supported this Bill. I am also grateful to the hon. Law Minister who has intervened in the debate and said somcthing perhaps against this Bill. I will not take much time of the House. The hon. Minister has cited some Constitutional points. He has referred to articles 344, 345 and 347. If I accept his arguments, then the inclusion of Sindhi language would have become, unjustffied. That is not possibie. He tricd to take this Bill ina wrong direction. When the language Sindhi was included in the year 1967, articles 344, 345 and 347 were’ also there in the Constitution. t The hon. Law Minister also spoke about the script. Many langeages have their gwao scripts and many languages 351 Constitution (Amendment) Bill Even They do not have their own scripts. Hindi has not got its own script. are fol'owing Dsvnagari script. SHRI MOOL CHAND DAGA: Devnagari is a script. ‘SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA : It is not a Hindi script. Not only the script but other aspects also should be taken into consideration whi'e eccepting any language for inctusion in the Eighth Schedule. Again, the hon. Law Minister said that on other language should be inclu- ded in the Eighth Schedule. Is that the intention ofthe ruling party or the Government? Are you going to puta full stop in the Eighth Schedule 7 PROF. N.G. RANGA: For the limited puvposc. SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA: At One time, you will inciude Sindhi and at another time you wil] refust to include Nepali or Manipuri or Konkani. There is no logic ia that. Ido not think that the Eighth Schedule is a complcte list. Certain criteria should be taken into consideration while including a language in the Eighth Schedule. Th-re are so many languages in our country and all the Inaguages have made their valuable contribution to our national integration, to our composite cultur>. Every language is flourishing. When a language com:s toa certain stage of development and fulfils certain criteria, at that appropriate time that language should be included in the Eighth Schedule. That is the major consideration. What stage of development Sindhireached in 1947, you canrot deny what the Nepali language has.achieved today. Certain criteria should be there. When any language in India achieves a certain stage of dcvclopment, then that language MARCH 29, 1985 Constitution 352 (Amendment) Bill should be included in the Eighth Schedule. That should be the consen- sus of all sections of the people and the linguistic groups of our country. I think, Nepali language has achieved that stage of devclopment which was found acceptable at the time of inc’usioa of Sindhi in the Eighth Schedule in 1967. Ihave no objection against any other language, whether it is Manipuri er Bhojpuri or Konkoni or Rajasthani and soon. What Iam trying to say is that all the Janguages are developing languages and, whcn they come toa certain stege of development, then they should be included in the Eighth Schedule. My plea is that Nepali language has reached that stage of development and it should be included in the Eighth Schedule right now. I want to refer to the discussion held on 13th and ?7th June, 1980 in the Seventh Lok Sabha. A similar Bill was piloted by Mr. Chitta Basu and another Bill was moved by Dr. Karan Singh. The Bill of Mr. Chitta Basu was to include Nepali in the Eighth Schedule and tho Bill of Dr. Karan Singh was to include Nepali and Dogri in the Eighth Schedule. What was the reply of the Government at that time ? Please go through the records. At that time, it was told by the Government that they would develop a national consensus to settle the mattcr as early as possible. This is on record. Now, the hon. Law Minister is referring to certain articles of the Constitution. My question is: Was the then Law Minister who intervened in the debate not aware of those articles of the Constitution ” At that time, it was Categorically said that a national Consensus will be developed within a very short time. But five ycars have gone and now the hon. Law Minister without making any point, any argume.at, is asking me to withdraw the Bill. Other things are also there. Shri Mool Chand Daga and Shri K. Q. 353 Constitution (Amendment) Bill Su'tanpuri have, in their own style, tal- ked of course about the vote banks. It is not the Opposition party who through all these things go for votes. It is you who want to exploit the situation. I want to refer to one thing 1n West Bengal Legislative Assembly. On 2nd June, 1977 unanimous resolution was accepted by the West Bengal Legislative Assembly requesting the union govern- ment to include Nepali in the 8th Schedule, of which Congress party.--... (Interruptions) That was the concensus in West Bengal and here you are saying that we are going for votes and all that. I will add some more thirgs ziso. In 1980, in West Bergal, this demand fourd place inthe Congress-I manifesto itself, Now you are saying this cannot be donc. Who are going for votes ? Whenever the Prime Minister went . over to Darjecling or Gangtok, Sikkim, he said that they accept this is principle and that they will 100 into the matter. They always say in that manrer there and here they are saying something opposite to that. So, : want to remind Shri Mool Chand Daga and Shri K. D. Sultanpuri that we are not harkering after votcs. । want to point out here the recent development in West Bengal. I havea newspaper The Telegraph of 27th ins= tant. The agitation is going on there for Urdu language, to accept Urdu language in West Bengal as the second official language. Some MLAs of the Congress party are with that movement. Here you are saying one thing and in the countryside you are saying another thing. BANARJEE KUMARI MAMTA **Not recorded. CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Constitution 354 (Amendment) Bill (Jadavpur): That is not true. It isa commitment of the West Bengal Left Front Government before elections, The only demand is that the question pupers for Urdu people should be set in Urdu language. It is the Urdu people who agitated and demanded. CPI(M) is trying to politically malign it. SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA : It is after all in the newspaper. You will be astonished to know that instead of the popular song—— “Saare Jaban se achha Hindustan hamara now they are saying— Urdustan hamara Are you to tolerate all these things ? KUMARI MAMTA BANERJEE: There is no political motive in’ that at all. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let him finish. SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA : I have full respect to the hon, Lady Membcr. न (Interruptions)** MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Ido not allow all these things. (Interruptions)** MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t go out of track. SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA । In West Bengalfor having some votes, they are supporting that Urdustan ard all that. Then I come to Mr. Priya Ranjan Das Munsi. He uttered onc sentence ” Constitution (Amendment) Bill that he supported the Bill, but in the course of the discussion, he actually opposed the Bill; he took much more time for advocating Hindi. I have no objection to the Hindi language, but this is not the occasion to discuss the devclopment of नि! ती or taking Hindt or English as the link language of our country, Taking all these things into corsidera- tion, we come to the conclusion that it is high time that we came toa _ conr- sensus and included the Nepali Jargu- age as arother language in the Eighth Schedule. ThceLaw Minister is here; the Minister of State in the Ministry of Home Affairs is also here. Please go through the record of the last Lok Sabha. Five years have passed. Do not wait any more. J agree with Mr. Tombi Singh that ‘waiting’ means in- viting more confrontation and agitation. It is high time that we accommodate some more lunguages andin the pro- cess. included the Nepali language also. I offer my thanks to the hon. Mem- bers who have taken part in this dis- cussion, and [appeal to all the hon. Members of this Heuse, I appeal to the whole House. to acccpt my Bill. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Mc. . Daga, are you withdrawing your amend- ment ? SHRI MOOL CHAND DAGA : Yes, Sir, I want to withdraw it. The amendment was, by leave, withdrawn. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : Mr. Satyagopal Misra, are you prcssirg ? SHRI SATYAGOPAL MISRA: Yes, Sir. I want that this Bill should be passed. I appeal {(o all the hon. Members to vote for it. MR, DEPUTY SPEAKER : Before MARCH 29, 1985 Constitution 356 (Amendment) Bill I put the consideration Motion to the vote of the House, this bcing a Constj- tution Amerdment Bill, voting has to be by division. Let the lobbies be cleared. Now the hobbies have been cleured. The Question is: “That the Bill further to amend the Constitution of India be taken into Consitution.” The Lok Sabha divided. AYES 1. Banatwala, Shri G. M. 2. Bhoopathy, Shri । 3. Chubey, Shri Narayan 4. Chowdhury, Shri Saifuddin 5. Dandavate, Prof. Madhu 6. Ghosh Goswami, Shrimati Bibha 7. Yyer, Shri V. 5. Krishna 8 Kabuli, Shri Abdul Rashid 9. Misra, Shri Satyagopal 10. Penchalliah, Shri ए. 11. Rao, Shri Srihari 12. Riyan, Shri Baju Ban 13, Roypradhan, Shri Amar 14. Saha, Shri Ajit Kumar 15. Tiraky, Shri Piyus NOES Abdul Ghafoor, Shri Azad, Shri Ghulam Nabi Baghel, Shri Pratapsingh 357 Constitution (Amendment) Bill Bairagi, Shri Balkavi Banerjee, Kumiri Mamta Bassavaraju, Shri G. 5. Bhagat, Shri H. K. L. Bharat Singh, Shri Bhardwaj, Shri Parasram Birinder Singh, Shri Charles, Shri A. Daga, Shri Moo! Chand Digvijay Sinh, Shri Fernandes, Oscar Gadgil, Shri V. N. Gomango, Shri Giridhar Gupta, Shrimati Prabhawati Jain, Shri Dalchander Jain, Shri Virdhi Chander Janarthanan, Shri Kadambur Khan, Shri Mohd. Ayub Khirhar, Shri R. 5. Kujur, Shri Maurice Kuppuswamy, Shri C. K. Mahabir Prasad, Shri Mahajan, Shri Y. S. Mallick, Shri Lakshman Misra, Dr. Prabhat Kumar Mohanty, Shri Brajamohan Murthy, Shri M. V. Chandrashekara Nawal Prabhakar, Shrimati Neckhara, Shri Rameshwar Nehru, Shri Arun Kumar Nirmala Kumari, Prof. Pandey, Shri Manoj Panigrahi, Shri Chintam ini Panika, Shri Ram Pyare CHAITRA 8, 1907 (SAKA) Canstitution (Amendment) Parashar, Prof. Narain Chand Paswan, Shri Ram Bhagat Pilot, Shri Rajesh Pushpa Devi, Kumari Qureshi, Shri Aziz Ram, Shri Ramswaroop Ranga, Prof. N. G. Ranganath, Shri K. H. Rao, Shri K. S. Rath, Shri Somnath Sen, Shri A. K. Sethi, Shri Ananta Prasad Shankaranand, Shri B. Shastri, Shri Hari Krishna Siddiq, Shri Hafiz Mohd. Sidnal, Shri S. B. Singh, Shri Lal Vijay Pratap Sinha, Shrimati Ram Dulari Sultanpuri, Shri K. D. Tewary, Prof. K. K. Tigga, Shri Simon Tombi Singh, Shri N. Vyas, Shri Girdhari Lal Yadav, Shri Shyam Lal Yadava, Shri D. P. Yogeshwar Prasad, Shri. MR DEPUTY SPEAKER : Ayes 15 Noes 63 348 Bill Subject to correction™, the result of the Division The motion is not carried by the required majority. * AYES : The following Members also recorded their votes. S/ShriS.M. Bhatam, Manik Reddy, A.J.V.B. Maheshwara Rao, Dr. Chinta Mohan, C. Sambu, Dr. G. Vija y Rama Rao : NOES: S/Shri H.B. Patil, Radhakanta Digal, K.R. Jangde, Jujhar Singh, Tilakdhari Singh, Kalicharan Ram Ratan, M.R. Janardhana, 3 - Constitution (Amendment) Bill The motion is not carried in accord:ncse with Rul: 157 of the Rules of Proczdure and in accordance with the provisions of Article 368 of the Constitution of India. The motion - negatived. The motion was negatived. 16 40 hrs. CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL (Omission of Article 44) by Shri G. M. Banatwalla । English] MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House will row take up the Bill further to amend the Constitution of India by Shri G.M. Banatwalla. Now, before we tuke up the Bill for corsideration, we have to fix the time for the Bill. Shall we fix 2 houre 7 Is it all right ? SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA: There is no necd 10 fix any time limit. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER : We have to fix a time-limit. Shall we fix 2 hours ? HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: So, 2 hours have been fixed for the Bill. Now’ Shri G.M. Banatwalla. SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA (Ponnani): MAREH 29, 1985 Constitution 3 60 (Amendment) Bill Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move: “That the Bill further to amend the Constitution of Jadia be taken into Consideration’’. The Bill sseks to delete Article 44 of the Constitution of India. Article 44 is as under: “The State shall end3avour to secure for the citiz:as a unfiorm civil code throughout the territory of India.” The aim cf the Articie is eventually to do away with all. the personal laws of the various communities. The final objective is that, instead of citizens being governed by thzir scparate systems of personal law ia regard to marriage, divorce, succession, inheri- tance aud such other matters, they should be governed by one system of law, Now, Sir, this unfiorm system of law, it is said, shou'd appty even with respect to matters in which the citizens are subject to different systems of personal law. My amei.diag Bill, as I have said, secks to delete this Article. — Article 44—of the Conslitutioa of India. Ireed hardiy point out that Christians and Parsis have their separate couificd Marriage and Divorce laws. Further, the laws of the Christians are supplemented in South India by a lot of local legisiation also. The Jewish Law of Marriage also remains uncodified. Then, the Muslims in Indja are today governed in these matters by their personal law, 07, in other words, by the Shariat. Before I proce-d further, Ict me point out the exact nature of the Muslim personal law. I submit that the Muslim srsonal law is an inalienable part of - the Islamic injunctions. A Muslim must adhere to it steadfastly lest he should cease to be a Muslim.